The China-India Comparison with Lots of Facts – Part 5/5

China, unlike India, has managed to contain unrest caused by such groups as the Falun Gong [cult] and the Tibetan and Islamic separatists over the objections of Western human rights activists that cannot stand how China manages these challenges.

Due to what many in the West call brutal measures, harmony and economic progress continue as planned for the vast majority of Chinese.

In addition, in rural China, “Living standards soared in the early 1980s—average incomes doubled in both the cities and the countryside, while there was a boom in both food consumption and the availability of consumer goods.” Source: Socialist Review Index.org.uk

“Growth in (China’s) peasant income, which had reached a rate of 15.2% a year from 1978 to 1984, dropped to 2.8% a year from 1986 to 1991. Some recovery occurred in the early 1990s, but stagnation of rural incomes marked the latter part of the decade.” Source: Asia Times

In fact, the last five-year plan is extending electricity to rural China and subsidizes the cost of appliances for rural villages once the electricity is turned on.

For an example of China’s continued progress, Tom Carter, one source for this post, is currently living in a small rural village in the tea-producing region of China near Hangzhou and has internet access from a village of twenty people.

I agree that India has the potential to equal or match China, but I doubt that will happen in the next few decades due to the economic long-term problems that India must overcome.

I don’t know where Manjeet Pavarti lives, but I suspect it isn’t outside of the gleaming glass and steel cites such as New Delhi, Mumbai or Bangalore.

People living inside these economic growth bubbles may have no idea how serious it is outside and probably don’t care or India would be dealing with these challenges as China has been doing since 1949.

India became a democracy in 1947, which means it has had more than sixty years to solve these problems, while China has had less than thirty since 1982 when the republic wrote its new constitution, took a seat at the United Nations in 1971 [replacing Taiwan] and joined the World Trade Organization in 2001.

It is ironic how the West seldom hears about India’s problems but always hears about every bit of negative news that happens in China, which is often distorted.

Return to The China-India Comparison with Lots of Facts – Part 4 or start with Part 1

______________

Lloyd Lofthouse is the award-winning author of The Concubine Saga. When you love a Chinese woman, you marry her family and culture too. This is the love story Sir Robert Hart did not want the world to discover.

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Note: This revised and edited post first appeared on October 22, 2010 as India Falling Short

22 Responses to The China-India Comparison with Lots of Facts – Part 5/5

  1. Arrangement

    The China-India Comparison with Lots of Facts – Part 5/5 | iLook China

  2. Darcy Cortes says:

    India has a long way to go to catch up with China. I wonder if they will do it with all the problems they have.

  3. Troy Parfitt says:

    Thanks Lloyd. Good work. That’s exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. So it’s okay to highlight corruption in the US, but not in China? Massive, safety jeopardizing corruption occurs everywhere, but it’s not okay to criticise it everywhere, oui ou non?

    Your theory, which is just great, and should be made into a T-shirt “Where there is money, we will find corruption and criminals” applies to China in a way, doesn’t it? World’s second largest economy and all.

    If you’re going to write about corruption in Canada, focus on Quebec. Lot of crime in Quebec.

    Expert? Who’s an expert? I can barely match my socks.

    So, if “Our Hart” is the man behind China’s railway system, who paid for the lines in the 1870s? The Qing? The colonials? Both? That SYS really pushed for a comprehensive railway system is fairly well known, I imagine. Mind you this was after Hart’s death in 1911. SYS wasn’t in China in 1911. He was in the US. I learned about Sun and his railways from reading Sterling Seagrave. Seagrave also talks about railway lines in Shandong province in his Dragon Lady, a book you’ve read and endorsed. He mentions how the railway helped render the Grand Canal useless or at least less useful and how lines went through burial grounds, etc. and infuriated the locals who looked upon the arteries as disrupting the balance, ruining the geomancy and all that jazz. Bad for the “wind water,” kind of like church spires. But then you know this because you’ve read Seagrave. Seagrave talks about how Sun had no common sense when it came to planning railway lines, not understanding why it would be difficult to construct them over the Ximalaiya Shan, pinyin for Himalayas (translated, the transliterations “means” West Horse Come Asia, funny). That’s why I thought it was interesting to see a book in his former Shanghai residence called Construction of Railway Curves by G. Watanabe. After Sun Yat-sen showed his master rail plan to the Australian advisor and journalist, William Henry Donald, Donald reported, “I saw evidence of a most convincing nature that Sun is not only mad as a hatter, but that he is madder.” But not mad enough that people didn’t follow through with his wishes. As I said, he was also behind the Three Gorges Dam. CKS had an American do the surveying and after Chiang fled to “bao dao” (the precious island), Mao took up the cause, jailed some engineers who didn’t agree with him, and all the rest. You know. The usual stuff. You start with a bad idea, no one points out it’s a bad idea because of the Confucian paradigm, or if someone does they’re silenced. Then the corruption starts. Friends and famlies get rich. Then there’s a disaster. You try and cover it up, but if too many people are on to you, jail someone, maybe execute someone to show you’re serious, tell people things like, ‘Focus on the positive,’ and then repeat.

    Anyway, the ignorant tourist would like to know who paid for Hart’s rail lines, because by the time SYS got around to drawing his straight lines from capital to capital with on a map (his the gift from the Japanese fellow), China was broke. Mind you, this was 40 years later, but I thought it was quite broke in the 1870s. No?

    • China railway information for the “Ignorant Tourist”

      To find out the details, I recommend the “Ignorant Tourist” buy both volumes of “The I. G. in Peking – Letters of Robert Hart, Chinese Maritime Customs 1868-1907,” which was published by The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, and London, England, 1975. [ISBN 0-674-44320-9 vol. 2]

      Hart wrote about fifty letters on this topic (in addition to notes from the historians that studied his letters)—far too much information for me to transcribe here since I cannot copy and paste so I will provide a glimpse into this treasure trove of historical facts on China from a primary source.

      Note 6 for letter 2 on page 41 of volume one shows that in 1858, foreign merchants were already seeking permission to develop railways (and they would finance the venture), telegraphs and mines in China to help increase foreign profits in China.

      In August 1873, in letter 62, page 118, Hart reveals more of where the funding was coming from to build railroads in China.

      In 1876, for letter 146, note 5, you will discover who financed the Wusung line in 1876.

      In February 1886, Letter 559, note 1, mentions that the Sino-French treaty sought exclusive rights for France to construct railroads in China. In fact, the French were not the only country seeking rights to build railways in China. German and American syndicates were seeking these rights and they were willing to spend their own money too.

      You will find a breakthrough on October 7, 1888 in letter 669, note 1, which mentions that in March 1887, Prince Ch’un was motivated by Li Hung-chang to extend rail lines that originated from T’ang-shan to be extended east to Shanhaikuan, west to Tientsin and to Peking. The China Railway Company was formed with Wu T’ing-fang as director, who was also in charge of finances. By August 1888, the Western extension to Tientsin was completed. It even says Claude Kinder was in charge of construction.

      Then in letter 712, note 1, dated August 1889, there is mention of funding and building a rail line from Hankow to Peking but thanks to the Sino-Japanese war that was postponed until 1896.

      In letter 874 dated January 15, 1893, Hart mentions the Kirin Railway and how the French insist that the order for materials to build the line go to France.

      In Letter 1022, note 4, dated June 7, 1896, it mentions a rail line being built by the Russians through Heilungkiang and Kirin to Vladivostok.

      The last letter I will mention is the crown jewel. Letter 1389, note 1, dated November 12, 1905, mentions that the 812-mile long Peking-Hankow railway was completed. Construction began in 1896. It says American and Belgian syndicates bid against each other for the financing and a contract was signed with the Belgians in June 1896.

      Since Hart left China in 1908 and the Qing Dynasty collapsed in 1911, I do not currently have any information between 1905 and 1949 for how many more rail lines may have been built in China during those years.

      Sun Yat-sen never ruled all of China so how could he be responsible for building any railroads except in the south. In fact, how long did he serve with the title of President? I recall that his term as president was cut very short and he had to flee China or be killed. I think he ran to Japan and hid out for a time. In fact, about the only area of China he controlled through the Nationalist Party (KMT) was around Canton and parts of Southeast China. Beijing was controlled by a warlord and Shanghai by Chinese gangsters until Sun died and Chang Kai-shek took his army to Shanghai where he attempted to irradiate the Communists Party and labor union leaders that led to the Civil War Mao and the CCP would win in 1949.

      _____________________________

      NOTE to all readers (not for Mr. Parfitt) – When I answer some of Troy Parfitt’s questions, I don’t answer them to change his opinions. That appears to be an impossible task since it is obvious that Mr. Parfitt has already made up his mind about China and its culture as if he were the judge, jury and executioner and has anointed himself as the China expert that cannot be denied.

      My reason for answering some of the more misleading questions instead of just deleting all of Mr. Parfitt’s comments is to provide answers often with facts and links to the sources of those facts that will provide readers with a better perspective and a balanced picture of China and its culture so readers can make up their own minds about China on their own.

      Does China have rail accidents? Yes, even if the number of rail accidents is one of the lowest on the planet while America’s rail accidents are often ten times China’s.

      Does China have crime and corruption? Yes, but when compared to statistics of crime and corruption in the West, which includes America, the numbers are much lower.

      Does China have poverty? Yes, but in the last thirty years China has reduced severe poverty more than any nation in history.

      Since China has rail accidents, crime, corruption and poverty like the rest of the world’s nations, should we condemn only China in isolation and ignore what is going on outside China? No, but it appears that Mr. Parfitt would gladly answer yes for this question.

    • Mr. Parfitt asked, “So it’s okay to highlight corruption in the US, but not in China? Massive, safety jeopardizing corruption occurs everywhere, but it’s not okay to criticize it everywhere, oui ou non?”

      I am shaking my head. You asked a question in a previous comment, and I answered with many facts making a point. Then from my answer, you ignore the point I was making and pose a new question in another comment that infers that I meant we should highlight corruption in the US but ignore corruption in China, which I never did.

      Mr. Patfitt, your motives appear underhanded and disingenuous!

      Anyone that reads this Blog regularly should realize that I’m making comparisons to put issues into perspective instead of twisting them out of context, so it is obvious that all nations have the same problems to deal with and some are bigger challenges than others such as the corruption in the US that led to the 2008 global financial crises costing many of the world’s nations trillions of dollars and tens of millions of lost jobs.

      Have any instances of corruption in China since 1949 come close to matching the 2008 global financial crisis that started in the United States? In fact, what did China do to help other nations after the crises hit? If you are going to criticize China, give them credit for doing something good when credit is due such as being responsible for 90% of the globe’s severe poverty and hunger reduction in the last thirty years. All other nations only contributed 10% of that reduction.

      How much did China invest in the US and Europe to help keep those countries from not ending in a potential total financial meltdown?

      How many times in your book did you let your readers know that China is not the only country with the problems you highlight and criticize?

      Americans should be more concerned with crime in the US than in China and the same applies to Canadians. Crime in China should be the concern of the Chinese people. Why is this the business of Canadians and Americans unless an American or Canadian individual has a personal axe to grind or a cultural [possibly racist] bias to vent? What is the motive of people such as Mr. Parfitt to focus so much energy on China when there are problems in his homeland that require his focus and attention?

      Do the Chinese come to America and Canada and criticize our handling of crime and blow it all out of proportion while printing lies to make America or Canada look worse than they are?
      ______________________

      NOTE to all readers (not for Mr. Parfitt) – When I answer some of Troy Parfitt’s questions, I don’t answer them to change his opinions. That appears to be an impossible task since it is obvious that Mr. Parfitt has already made up his mind about China and its culture as if he were the judge, jury and executioner and has anointed himself as the China expert that cannot be denied.

      My reason for answering some of the more misleading questions instead of just deleting all of Mr. Parfitt’s comments is to provide answers often with facts and links to the sources of those facts that will provide readers with a better perspective and a balanced picture of China and its culture so readers can make up their own minds about China on their own.

      Does China have rail accidents? Yes, even if the number of rail accidents is one of the lowest on the planet while America’s rail accidents are often ten times China’s.

      Does China have crime and corruption? Yes, but when compared to statistics of crime and corruption in the West, which includes America, the numbers are much lower.

      Does China have poverty? Yes, but in the last thirty years China has reduced severe poverty more than any nation in history.

      Since China has rail accidents, crime, corruption and poverty like the rest of the world’s nations, should we condemn only China in isolation and ignore what is going on outside China? No, but it appears that Mr. Parfitt would gladly answer yes for this question.

  4. Troy Parfitt says:

    I watch Hockey Night in Canada. Does that count?

    Here’s a follow up from the BBC.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14271163

    And here’s a video.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-14265533

    And here’s another follow up, a good article about high-speed rail related corruption. Embezzled funds, fake invoices, a contaminated bidding process. Interesting stuff. Of course it’s all speculative, and people should focus on the love. They should be glass half full. A negative attitude never got anyone anywhere.

    And finally, here’s an article where China admits its corruption issues are “very serious,” also from the BBC.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12088147

    Can you think of any modern day examples in the West where massive corruption might have compromised the safety of trains, airplanes, etc.? I mean corruption to the tune of $28 million. That’s a lot of dumplings.

    It’s true these things don’t just happen in China. When Taipei’s MRT system was built, there was tons of sleaze, or so newspapers reported and Taiwanese people said. A train caught fire, walls in the stations were hollow…. All kinds of contruction company neglect and “black gold,” collusion between officials and the mob – all the contruction cos. are mob affiliated. The great thing about Taiwan, though, is that people talk about this kind of thing openly. It’s in the papers, on TV…. I once tutored a VIP, a bank executive who told me all kinds of interesting things about the government, legislator’s relations with the mafia, and all the rest. Fascinating stuff.

    I really don’t know how you didn’t notice all those BBC articles LLoyd. What browser do you use? How did you get results for france24.com and infoplease.com before the BBC?

    hao qi guai

    • Parfitt asked, “Can you think of any modern day examples in the West where massive corruption might have compromised the safety of trains, airplanes, etc.? I mean corruption to the tune of $28 million.”

      You should be careful what you ask. The answer is “to the tune of” billion instead of millions of dollars and thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of lives lost.

      Is that enough to beat out the paltry $28 million you mention? Probably not, because to Troy Parfitt anything outside China is not germane to the topic.

      The rule of thumb is, “Where there is money, we will find corruption and criminals” and there is more money in the US—at least for now.

      What exactly are you an expert in? Do you focus on China only and ignore cases of massive corruption in the West?

      This list that follows is only an example of the corruption in the West and I focused only on America. Imagine what I’d discover if I widened my Google search parameters to include Canada and all of Europe

      _____________________________

      FDA Corruption Jeopardizes Food Safety and Public Health
      Source: http://laudyms.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/fda-corruption-jeopardizes-food-safety/

      ____________________________

      FDA refuses to pull dangerous diabetes drug Avandia, even knowing it will kill thousands.
      http://www.naturalnews.com/021959_Avandia_diabetes.html

      ____________________________

      Americans fed up with drug industry influence, FDA corruption, reveals remarkable Consumer Reports Survey
      http://www.naturalnews.com/021795_the_FDA_reforms.html

      ___________________________

      Conflicts of interest in the FDA are rampant and largely ignored.
      http://www.naturalnews.com/021388_conflicts_of_interest_FDA_corruption.html

      ___________________________

      While scientists clash over the dangers of ADHD drugs, the U.S. government does nothing to protect children.
      http://www.naturalnews.com/020321_ADHD_drugs_drug_side_effects.html

      __________________________

      WHO issues warning about corruption in the pharmaceutical industry?
      http://www.naturalnews.com/028686_Big_Pharma_corruption.html

      _________________________

      Pilot hurt in jet breakup sues Boeing

      Air Force investigators said they found cracks in aircraft parts that failed and were installed without proper safety specifications.
      The entire fleet of F-15s was grounded while the planes were inspected.
      Most returned to the skies, though several remained grounded with similar cracks discovered.
      The planes were built by defense contractor McDonnell Douglas, which was later bought by Boeing Corp.

      http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/25/pilot.lawsuit/index.html?iref=allsearch
      ________________________
      United Airlines Crash into New York City: World’s Worst Aviation Disaster in 1960

      “The direct cause of the crash was the pilot’s incredibly poor performance, which arose from the documented refusal by United Airlines personnel to provide legally required training and competency checks to its crewmembers, falsification of its safety records, threats upon federal air safety inspectors who sought report and take corrective actions on these matters. And much more.”
      United Airlines DC-8 Crash at Denver Airport
      “United Airlines DC-8 crash at the Denver airport, in which many of the passengers were cremated alive. The direct causes of the crash arose from refusal to perform legally required training and competency checks, felony falsification of federally required safety records, threats against inspectors by United Airlines and FAA management personnel, and other problems.

      “The primary misconduct at United Airlines was covered up by FAA management, that had for various reasons allowed the misconduct to continue.”

      United Airlines Crash at Salt Lake City: Classic of Massive Corruption and Deaths

      United Airlines Crash Into Portland, Oregon
      “United Airlines DC-8 crash at Portland, Oregon. (Flight engineer and passengers killed.) Same problems with training and competency checks, enabled to occur by the usual endemiccover-ups. That disaster occurred shortly after the first edition of Unfriendly Skies had been released, and threatened to expose the corruption responsible for a series of prior forewarned and preventable aviation disasters—and the prior cover-ups by the political board members of the NTSB.”

      Crash of PSA 727 Into San Diego
      “In 1978, as the first edition of Unfriendly Skies became available, a 727 of PSA crashed into San Diego, taking the record for the world’s worst air disaster from the United Airlines crash into New York City in 1960. Although FAA failure to act on the reports of flight crew drinking played an enabling role, the primary scandal was the cover-ups by the political board members of the National Transportation Safety Board of the behind-the-scene scandalous conduct—a common cover-up practice by the NTSB for years.”
      Source: http://www.defraudingamerica.com/airline_crashes.html
      _____________________________________
      Medicines: corruption and pharmacceuticals
      Key facts
      • US$ 4.1 trillion is spent globally on health services every year, with US$ 750 billion spent in the pharmaceutical market.
      • 10 to 25% of public procurement spending (including on pharmaceuticals) is lost to corrupt practices.

      Source: http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs335/en/index.html
      _____________________________________

      “A GAO report found Defense inventory systems so lax that the U.S. Army lost track of 56 airplanes, 32 tanks, and 36 Javelin missile command launch-units. When military leaders were scrambling to find enough chemical and biological warfare suits to protect U.S. troops, the department was caught selling these suits as surplus on the Internet ‘for pennies on the dollar.'”
      — San Francisco Chronicle, 5/18/03
      Source: http://www.grgpc.com/Wrongful-Death-and-Catastrophic-Injuries/Military-Air-Crashes.shtml
      _______________________

      Military waste under fire: $1 trillion missing
      May 18, 2003, San Francisco Chronicle (San Francisco’s leading newspaper)
      http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2003/05/18/MN251738.DTL

      “The Department of Defense, already infamous for spending $640 for a toilet seat … couldn’t account for more than a trillion dollars in financial transactions, not to mention dozens of tanks, missiles and planes. The nonpartisan General Accounting Office has raised the volume of its perennial complaints about the financial woes at Defense, which recently failed its seventh audit in as many years.

      “Overhauling DOD’s financial management operations represent a challenge that goes far beyond financial accounting,” GAO chief David Walker told lawmakers.

      “Recent government reports suggest the Pentagon’s money management woes have reached astronomical proportions. A GAO report found Defense inventory systems so lax that the U.S. Army lost track of 56 airplanes, 32 tanks, and 36 Javelin missile command launch-units.

      “When military leaders were scrambling to find enough chemical and biological warfare suits to protect U.S. troops, the department was caught selling these suits as surplus on the Internet “for pennies on the dollar,” a GAO official said.

      “We are overhauling our financial management system,” said Dov Zakheim, the Pentagon’s chief financial officer.

      “The Pentagon has failed to address financial problems that dwarf those of Enron,” said Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Los Angeles.

      Gregory Kutz, director of GAO’s financial management division [said] “I’ve been to Wal-Mart. They were able to tell me how many tubes of toothpaste were in Fairfax, Va. And DOD can’t find its chem-bio suits.” Opposition to defense spending is portrayed as unpatriotic. Legislators are often more concerned about winning Pentagon pork than controlling defense waste.
      ____________________

      Osprey Scandal Widens – Computer files of two Marine Corps Generals seized

      “The Marine Corps leadership want $40 billion of our tax dollars to buy 360 of the controversial aircraft even though there have been three crashes in recent years, killing 26 Marines and four civilians.”

      http://www.militarycorruption.com/osprey.htm
      _________________________
      Fort Pinto Case

      Events in the 1970s related to the Ford Pinto automobile illustrate some of the ethical issues related to technology and safety. In an effort to produce a stylish but affordable subcompact automobile with a low operating cost, Ford Motor Company management made a questionable decision regarding the positioning of and protection for the fuel tank. A safer gas tank and tank location were technologically feasible, but consumer affordability and style took precedence over safety. Ford engineers were constrained by design and cost limitations, and the case therefore illustrates how engineering decisions are often made in the context of marketing strategies.

      Ford produced the Pinto automobile from 1971 to 1980. Initially the car sold well, but a defect in early models made Pintos prone to leaking fuel and catching on fire after relatively low-speed, rear-end collisions. The Pinto’s gasoline tank was located behind the rear axle. A rear-end collision of about twenty-eight miles per hour or more would crush the car’s rear end, driving the fuel tank against the differential housing and causing it to split and the filler pipe to break loose. Sometimes the spilled fuel and sparks from the crash caused fires that produced fatalities or serious burns.

      Source: http://www.bookrags.com/research/ford-pinto-case-este-0001_0002_0/

      ______________________________

      November 28, 2011

      Settlement Reached $20 million in Wrongful Death Case Against GSA (U. S. General Services Adminstration) Contractors

      Just before the Thanksgiving holiday, a Washington federal judge signed off on a settlement in a $20 million wrongful death case stemming from a 2004 steam explosion in downtown D.C. that killed two men.

      Source: http://legaltimes.typepad.com/blt/2011/11/settlement-reached-in-20m-wrongful-death-case-against-gsa-contractors.html

      _____________________

      Probe Uncovers 3,500 Safety Violations on CSX Railroad Properties

      “Federal railroad officials said this week that an investigation found more than 3,500 problems with CSX Corp. railroad properties in 23 states, a probe started in response to a series of accidents involving the company’s trains.”

      The agency’s inspectors, he said, “identified problems in every area of the company’s safety performance, including track, hazardous materials and on-track equipment.”

      Source: http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2007/03/29/78214.htm

      _________________________

      OSHA: Train Yard in Somerville cited for 22 serious safety volations

      “Inspections conducted between April and October revealed “employees in the facility’s diesel, carpentry, truck, pipe and coach shops exposed to potential electric shocks, electrocution, fires, falls, chemical burns, lacerations, amputations and bloodborne pathogens, as well as to injuries from crushing, slipping and tripping hazards,” according to a press release.”
      Source: http://www.wickedlocal.com/somerville/features/x1138520013/OSHA-Train-yard-in-Somerville-cited-for-22-serious-safety-violations#axzz1iiYT5P33
      ____________________
      FRA to fine railroad for safety violations
      December 8, 2010

      WASHINGTON — Terminal Railroad Association of St. Louis (TRRA) faces a fine from the FRA for alleged failure to report an injury and for underreporting of days lost by an injured employee and failure to maintain complete and timely records of injuries to other employees, says the FRA.

      “These latest findings from the FRA confirm a disturbing trend that began to emerge more than a year ago,” said UTU Illinois Legislative Director Robert W. Guy. “They suggest a deteriorating safety atmosphere at TRRA. The railroad has now been cited for safety violations four times within a year, including this latest citation.”

      Source: http://utu.org/2010/12/08/fra-to-fine-railroad-for-safety-violations/

      _________________________

      Mr. Parfitt, I’m not your dog to go fetch whenever you ask a question. When a question is intelligent or meaningful to the conversation, I may respond. Otherwise, I will ignore them and delete some of the more stupid comments you leave that do not contribute anything to the conversation and since this is my Blog, I’m the judge—not you!

      NOTE to all readers (not for Mr. Parfitt) – When I answer some of Troy Parfitt’s questions, I don’t answer them to change his opinions. That appears to be an impossible task since it is obvious that Mr. Parfitt has already made up his mind about China and its culture as if he were the judge, jury and executioner and has anointed himself as the China expert that cannot be denied.

      My reason for answering some of the more misleading questions instead of just deleting all of Mr. Parfitt’s comments is to provide answers often with facts and links to the sources of those facts that will provide readers with a better perspective and a balanced picture of China and its culture so readers can make up their own minds about China on their own.

      Does China have rail accidents? Yes, even if the number of rail accidents is one of the lowest on the planet while America’s rail accidents are often ten times China’s.

      Does China have crime and corruption? Yes, but when compared to statistics of crime and corruption in the West, which includes America, the numbers are much lower.

      Does China have poverty? Yes, but in the last thirty years China has reduced severe poverty more than any nation in history.

      Since China has rail accidents, crime, corruption and poverty like the rest of the world’s nations, should we condemn only China in isolation and ignore what is going on outside China? No, but it appears that Mr. Parfitt would gladly answer yes for this question.

  5. Troy Parfitt says:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-14321060

    What about the BBC’s coverage?

    It says:

    “Rail experts had warned against the rush to build the world’s longest and fastest high-speed rail network in record time amid safety concerns.”

    and

    “The BBC’s Martin Patience in Wenzhou says it is difficult to get to the truth because of a lack of transparency and accountability.”

    Which is why other publications are left speculating in the first place, in’it?

    It also says:

    “Internet users and relatives of the victims have been angered by the government’s apparent unwillingness to answer questions about the crash.This has led to accusations of government “arrogance”, amid suspicions of a cover-up.
    The authorities have moved quickly to stem media coverage, urging reporters to focus on “extremely moving” stories, saying the overall theme should be “great love in the face of great disaster”.”

    Ah, yes, great love. Don’t focus on the disaster. Focus on love.

    Lloyd, you’ve endorsed the BBC. Do you think their statements here are “inflamatory?” Biased? Racist perhaps?

    How was it you didn’t include the BBC coverage in your list of besmirching publications? It’s the first source that pops up in a Google for China train accidents. You’re not “cherry picking” are you Lloyd? I suppose you couldn’t be. There’s no such thing as cherry picking.

    • Parfitt,

      You ask, “How was it you didn’t include the BBC coverage in your list of besmirching publications?”

      Easy answer — there were more than fifty-five million hits when I did the Google Search on China rail accidents or did I use rail accidents in China. Whatever. I took what came first. If you think I’m going to spend the rest of my life listing every Western media source that reported on this one accident, your brain must be scrambled eggs with cheese.

      This is a question that common sense should answer instead of wasting time in some futile attempt to divert from the topic and change tracks by insinuating I was cherry picking as you often do.

      Why don’t you just admit that you are wrong and that China is not treated the same as a democracy would be in the same case as I have proven with my reply to your first question?

      China has had four rail accidents in a ten year period while the US had forty-five. The New York Times says that Europe and Japan have an excellent record regarding rail accidents and I prove that they were wrong, lied or deliberately misled the public and you ignored that.

      What does that say about who you are?

      Then there is your next statement which common sense and anyone that reads mysteries or watches crime shows on TV should be able to answer easily.

      You say, “Internet users and relatives of the victims have been angered by the government’s apparent unwillingness to answer questions about the crash.”

      How can the authorities answer the relatives and victims questions and demands when the authorities do not know all the details themselves?

      Do these high-speed trains have black boxes like aircraft and if so would this black box reveal that a switch not part of the train was damaged due to a lightning strike? How long do you think it would take to find all the evidence to prove these fifty some people were not doing their jobs? Investigators have to investigate and follow the paper trail to see what led to this so-called faulty switch to not working the first place.

      To find those answers would take time. How much time? Who knows? Every investigation is different.

      In addition, it is standard procedure during an official investigation not to reveal the facts and evidence being discovered until all the answers are in or until the investigation is completed and the people in charge see the results first.

      Police Forum.org says, “Feelings of mutual suspicion develop routinely between the media and the police. In some cases, the cause is their often conflicting responsibilities to the public. For example, a department’s need for secrecy in an ongoing investigation conflicts with the media’s desire to report as much information as possible. The result is frustration for police and media alike, with each alienated by the other’s seeming disregard for their own professional needs.”

      Source: http://www.policeforum.org/library/budgeting/Media%20Relations%20&%20Budgeting.pdf

      Anyone that reads mystery novels or watches crime shows on TV knows this.

      Do you read mysteries?

      Do you watch TV?

      Have you ever read a news piece where the reporter says that the police would not answer questions related to an ongoing investigation?

      I thought you have read many books. I’m surprised you don’t know this. Oh, maybe the only books you read are those that demonize and stereotype China by inflating facts and inventing myths as if they were true.

      __________________________

      NOTE to all readers (not for Mr. Parfitt) – When I answer some of Troy Parfitt’s questions, I don’t answer them to change his opinions. That appears to be an impossible task since it is obvious that Mr. Parfitt has already made up his mind about China and its culture as if he were the judge, jury and executioner and has anointed himself as the China expert that cannot be denied.

      My reason for answering some of the more misleading questions instead of just deleting all of Mr. Parfitt’s comments is to provide answers often with facts and links to the sources of those facts that will provide readers with a better perspective and a balanced picture of China and its culture so readers can make up their own minds about China on their own.

      Does China have rail accidents? Yes, even if the number of rail accidents is one of the lowest on the planet while America’s rail accidents are often ten times China’s.

      Does China have crime and corruption? Yes, but when compared to statistics of crime and corruption in the West, which includes America, the numbers are much lower.

      Does China have poverty? Yes, but in the last thirty years China has reduced severe poverty more than any nation in history.

      Since China has rail accidents, crime, corruption and poverty like the rest of the world’s nations, should we condemn only China in isolation and ignore what is going on outside China? No, but it appears that Mr. Parfitt would gladly answer yes for this question.

  6. Alessandro says:

    “Also, is it really a revalation that there are train accidents in every country?”

    As you said Mr. Lofthouse..for someone indeed train accidents in other countries seem to really be “not germane” to the issue 🙂

    我实在觉得Troy太可笑。他净问同样的问题,老用着同样的修辞战略来隐藏自己对中国的无知和成见。

  7. Troy Parfitt says:

    Lloyd said,

    “Which is why I like to search for facts such as comparing the rail accidents in China to other countries to see if the inflammatory language used in most Western media pieces reporting such accidents in China is justified or when there is news of corruption in China or poverty or an oil spill or a mine accident, etc. I check to see how China compares with other countries such as India or the US.”

    What sort of inflamatory language? Can we have some examples?

    • Mr. Parfitt,

      More questions. You are always asking questions when the answers are easy at hand by doing a Google search, which is what I’m going to do to answer your question and make my point.

      As usual, here’s the answer with facts to support what I say.

      __________________________

      The Boston Globe focused on this lead, “Chinese Internet users accused the government Thursday of failing to take responsibility for a deadly bullet train crash after it said 54 officials were to blame but none would face criminal charges.”

      “It looks like they found some scapegoats to fire,” said a note posted on the popular Sina Weibo microblogging service.

      Source: http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2011/12/29/chinese_netizens_criticize_train_crash_report/

      Note: If China’s government is guilty for what caused that rail accident, then every government, including the United States, must be held responsible for every rail accident that happens in each country.
      _________________________________

      “The rush to meet deadlines has come as the expense of safety.”

      First the ABC piece says that China sends out orders to cover the story up and replace it with a more positive spin calling it “damage control”, and then, they say, “the crash isn’t the only story they are trying to bury” and near the end one of the ABC news people holds up the front page of a Chinese newspaper and says this is a country where the people are extremely fearful of disobeying the authorities”. Then she holds up the front page of “one of the biggest newspapers”, and reads the headline, “This incident should never have happened. Why did it happen?”

      ABC claims one thing and then proves that their claim is wrong. The “biggest newspaper” in China is owned by the government and if the government told them not to do something, they would follow those directions.

      Source: http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/china-bullet-train-crash-cover-14165423

      ____________________________

      The New York Times said, “BEIJING — A deadly train accident in eastern China has added to a national sense of unease that safety may have been sacrificed in the country’s rush to modernize.”

      The New York Times piece focused on Blog comments on Weibo relying on rumor and the emotional response to develop the story that made government officials look bad.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/25/world/asia/25train.html

      ___________________________

      In another New York Times story, they compare Europe and Japan with China’s and use a bit of trickery to pull it off.

      The NYT says, “High-speed rail’s excellent safety record in Europe and in Japan — not a single fatality has occurred in Japan since the technology was introduced in the 1960s — has led some experts to ask if China is moving too swiftly to build about 12,000 miles of track by 2020.”

      However, what the NYT reports is not true or is misleading.

      Rail accidents in Japan since 1960:

      May 3,1962. Tokyo: 163 killed and 400 injured when train crashed into wreckage of collision between inbound freight train and outbound commuter train.

      Nov. 9, 1963, Yokohama, Japan: 2 passenger trains crashed into derailed freight train, killing 162.

      In April 25, 2005, Osaka, Japan: commuter train derailed and hit an apartment building near Osaka, killing at least 107 and injuring 460. It was the worst Japanese train accident since 1963. The accident was allegedly caused by the driver trying to get the train back on schedule.

      Rail accidents in Europe since 1960:

      Nov. 14, Pardubice, Czechoslovakia: 2 trains collided; 110 dead, 106 injured.

      July 26, 1964, Custoias, Portugal: passenger train derailed; 94 dead.

      July 21, 1972, Seville, Spain: head-on crash of two passenger trains killed 76.

      Aug. 30, 1974, Zagreb, Yugoslavia: train entering station derailed, killing 153 and injuring over 60.

      June 3, 1998,. Eschede, Germany: Inter City Express passenger train traveling at 125 mph [Note: sounds like high speek rail to me] crashed into support pier of overpass, killing 98. It is nation’s worst train accident since WWII.Crash may have been caused by a defective wheel.

      Oct. 5, 1999, London: outbound Thames commuter train passed a red signal near Paddington Station and collided with London-bound Great Western express, killing 31 people and injuring 245.

      June 30, 2009 Italy: a freight train that was traveling from La Spezia to Pisa derailed and crashed into a small Italian town, killing 12 people and injuring at least 50 more.

      Source: Railroad Accidents: number of deaths, dates and locations of crashes — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001450.html#ixzz1icM40Uc7

      In June 2010, dozens were killed and injured in high-speed train accident (in Spain)

      Source: http://www.france24.com/en/20100624-several-revellers-killed-high-speed-train-while-crossing-track-spain
      ____________________

      In addition, here’s a list of rail accidents that goes back for more than a century. I decided to compare China’s rail accidents with the listing for the global total for one period of time between 2000 – 2009.

      China had four rail accidents. One in 2005, one 2007 one in 2008 and one in 2009. By comparison, the United States had forty-nine rail accidents listed. Canada had more rail accidents than China too.

      China’s percent of the total number of rail accidents for those years was 1.54% while the United States was 18.9%.

      Here’s the global total for each year:

      2000 = 16
      2001 = 15
      2002 = 21
      2003 = 20
      2004 = 19
      2005 = 41
      2006 = 39
      2007 = 23
      2008 = 36
      2009 = 39

      Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_rail_accidents
      ___________________________

      ABC spins the story as a cover up but then Bloomberg reports the story without hype and sets the record right. “A Chinese high-speed railway crash that killed 39 people was likely caused by a design flaw in a signaling system, state-run Xinhua News Agency said, citing a preliminary investigation by the Shanghai Railway Bureau.

      “Duty officers in Wenzhou, the station closest to the site of the July 23 crash in southeast China, also didn’t know that the signals could be wrong and weren’t focused enough on safety, the report said, citing An Lusheng, head of the Shanghai bureau, which oversees rail operations in the area of the accident.”

      The Bloomberg story was fair and leaves out the inflammatory accusations and doesn’t focus on emotional Blog gossip. It is safe to say that anyone searching Blog traffic will find exactly what they are looking for.

      http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-28/china-high-speed-rail-crash-that-killed-39-likely-caused-by-signal-fault.html
      __________________________
      Then on December 28, 2011, Fox News runs this story from Associated Press.

      A long-awaited government report said design flaws and sloppy management caused a bullet train crash in July that killed 40 people and triggered a public outcry over the high cost and dangers of China’s showcase transportation system.

      A former railway minister was among 54 officials found responsible for the crash, a Cabinet statement said Wednesday.

      Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/12/28/china-blames-54-officials-for-fatal-bullet-train-crash/#ixzz1icO3phUl

      ______________________________

      Where’s the cover up and the damage control? It appears that you are taking shots in the dark with your often challenging questions in the hope that the person being asked won’t have the time to respond or is unable to answer and then you score a few points for the “more-than-a-tourist expert on China.

      • Xiaohu Liu says:

        As a side-note and speaking of Bloomberg, I find the business press like Bloomberg and the FT a lot more truthful and fact oriented in their reporting of China than the rest of the corporate media. I think it has to do with the fact that investors with money on the line is less interested in mainstream propaganda.

        I first noticed this when Japan accused China of using limits on rare-earth as a political tool in the dispute over some Islands. Whereas the rest of the press made it look like China was blackmailing Japan with economic threats, Bloomberg correctly noted that the limits rare-earth had been set a year prior to the dispute over the fishing boat incident and that the rare-earth market and rare-earth traders prices did not react to the accusation.

      • Troy Parfitt says:

        I can explain those Canadian accidents. The beer is strong here.

        But how are those statements inflamatory? What do you mean by inflamatory? I see examples of weak reportage, standard reportage, and, apparently, inaccurate reportage, but I don’t understand, for example, why writing about people’s reactions or conerns constitutes biased or “inflamatory” reportage. The NY Times was reporting on what people think. You do the same thing when you post stats about what Chinese people think about their governent. What’s the difference?

        Also, is it really a revalation that there are train accidents in every country?

        Did you know China’s rail system was (as in, a comprehensive one) dreampt up by Sun Yat-sen? It’s true. He thought the railroad had made the US, and was what China needed. Or is it impossible to know that, because he’s dead? One thing Sun didn’t understand was that rail lines couldn’t run straight (as in: over hiils, lakes, etc.). His advisor, an Australian surnamed Donald, scoffed at his railway map (and for good reason), but now his dream has been realized (his railway dream; not his dream for elected officials). In 2007, the number of km of China’s railways exceeded that of Sun’s original plan, 53,000. If you go to Sun’s house in the former French Concession, you’ll see, among the gifts, a book on contructing railway lines from a Japanese friend surnamed Watanabe. That’s all from memory. I didn’t Google anything, so there might be an error or two. The Three Gorges Dam was Sun’s idea, too.

        But then, you knew that, didn’t you?

        This just in. Apparently, there are car accidents in all country’s with cars. More banal statements at seven. Now, for sports….

      • Mr. Parfitt said, “Did you know China’s rail system was (as in, a comprehensive one) dreamt up by Sun Yat-sen? It’s true. He thought the railroad had made the US, and was what China needed.”

        I thought you were a China expert. Sun Yat-sen is not responsible for the existence of China’s rail system, and he was not the first one to believe it was what China needed. Where did you read this nonsense?

        Due to wars and rebellions and near bankruptcy, little was built in the 19th century but the plans for an extensive system came about due to one man and that man was not Sun Yat-sen. His name was Sir. Robert Hart.

        In fact, well over half of the present system is less than 50 years old but what existed before that construction boom was started by Hart in the 1870s.

        In the 1870s, Sir Robert Hart convinced the Qing Dynasty to start building a rail system in China and the contract went to the largest opium merchant in China at the time with an agreement between Hart and that company to stop selling opium in China. That British company built the rail lines and then had the license to operate and maintain them and did stop selling opium to the Chinese after they signed the contract.

        If you haven’t read “Entering China’s Service” published by Harvard University Press, you may want to and learn who really was behind building China’s rail network. To China experts and historians, Hart is known as the godfather of China’s modernization. He was the mastermind behind many things that helped start the modernization of China. He was responsible for a western style postal system being built, for starting the construction of the railroads, for reinventing China’s education system to compete with the West and much more.

        __________________________

        NOTE to all readers (not for Mr. Parfitt) – When I answer some of Troy Parfitt’s questions, I don’t answer them to change his opinions. That appears to be an impossible task since it is obvious that Mr. Parfitt has already made up his mind about China and its culture as if he were the judge, jury and executioner and has anointed himself as the China expert that cannot be denied.

        My reason for answering some of the more misleading questions instead of just deleting all of Mr. Parfitt’s comments is to provide answers often with facts and links to the sources of those facts that will provide readers with a better perspective and a balanced picture of China and its culture so readers can make up their own minds about China on their own.

        Does China have rail accidents? Yes, even if the number of rail accidents is one of the lowest on the planet while America’s rail accidents are often ten times China’s.

        Does China have crime and corruption? Yes, but when compared to statistics of crime and corruption in the West, which includes America, the numbers are much lower.

        Does China have poverty? Yes, but in the last thirty years China has reduced severe poverty more than any nation in history.

        Since China has rail accidents, crime, corruption and poverty like the rest of the world’s nations, should we condemn only China in isolation and ignore what is going on outside China? No, but it appears that Mr. Parfitt would gladly answer yes for this question.

  8. Xiaohu Liu says:

    I think the treatment of China versus the treatment of India in the media is a question of emphasis. Case in point. The recent discovery of mass graves in Indian occupied Kashmir.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/23/

    Imagine if “Thousands of bullet-riddled bodies are buried in dozens of unmarked grave” were found in Tibet and the field day the press would have with it. We’d see months of coverage, and continual updates. But as it is, no one here has probably heard about it or the scale that the atrocities take place.

    While any excuse is sought to legitimize China’s communist government, because of its challenge to the international status quo, no such scrutiny is paid to India. An ascendant India is not going to change the world order. It is more likely to be a follower than a leader.

    • Xiaohu Liu says:

      This all fits what Noam Chomsky’s theory of atrocities. The west divides atrocities into three categories, useful, benign, and bad atrocities. Useful atrocities are those who our ideological enemies commit, and those that can be used for our own purposes, benign atrocities are those while horrible, doesn’t affect anyone or any interests, while the ‘bad’ atrocities are those that we commit and that discredits us.

      Though, Chomsky’s original examples were Cambodia, East Timor and Vietnam, I think we have three example from today that fits.

      A useful atrocities is what happened in Tienanmen square 20 years ago. A benign atrocities is what is happening in Indian occupied kashmir, and the Indian insurgency war against the native tribes and Maoists. A ‘bad’ atrocities is what is happened in Iraq and Afghanistan, with the bombing of civilians, torture, and kill teams.

      • Xiaohu Liu,

        What would be considered an atrocity in China would be grist for the Western Yellow Journalism media, but a similar incident in a democracy, if covered, would be stuck on page 90 in the lower left hand corner with little or no inflammatory language.

        Case in point—last week there was another rail accident in China and the language in the Western media that reported it was was caustic. That was the second rail accident in China in about a year. In the same period, there were about eleven rail accidents in the US. In one, about a thousand people had to be evacuated due to chemical spill or fire due to a derailed train or collison of trains.

        To find this information, I had to do a Google search and ended up at a fact-gathering source that isn’t part of the Western media where most people get their news.

    • Xiaohu Liu,

      I wrote on a post on a similar topic.

      http://ilookchina.net/2011/03/11/border-crossings-and-the-blood-on-our-hands/

      Mr. Parfitt would probably say that this post isn’t germane to any topic dealing with China.

      • Xiaohu Liu says:

        Another issue here is reliance on experts and opinion formers.

        It is much easier for a layperson to pick a political or social position ready made by a corporate media outlet, than it is to understand an issue through and through independently. This why we come to rely on experts, we assume that they with greater information/access can form an opinion better than ours, but this too is open to manipulation. Case in point the modern thinktank started out as a place for generating new ideas but has really turned into propaganda organs, each branded with a ideological mark and doing the bidding of those who pay for the thinktank. They in turn get quoted as an authoritative source by the corporate media.

      • Xiaohu Liu,

        Which is why I like to search for facts such as comparing the rail accidents in China to other countries to see if the inflammatory language used in most Western media pieces reporting such accidents in China is justified or when there is news of corruption in China or poverty or an oil spill or a mine accident, etc. I check to see how China compares with other countries such as India or the US.

        That’s how I discovered that rail accidents happen all over the world. In Europe, high-speed rail accidents resulting in deaths have taken place, but the sort of language used in the Western media about rail accidents in China is not used to report similar rail accidents in other countries. Since the US does not have high-speed rail, there are no accidents reported in America for that type of accident.

        However, I found facts that slower rail accidents happen in America so often—almost daily because the rail infrastructure in the US is in such bad shape—that no one reports them unless they are really bad and shocking while the language used to describe such shocking rail accidents in the US is never as inflammatory as the language used to report the rare rail accident in China. The only reason that the rail accidents in America do not result in many deaths is that few people travel long distance by rail in the US while passenger trips in India and China number in the billions annually.

        I also learned that rail accidents in India are so common that people are not surprised by a high death count from an accident. Yet, the Western media treated the stories of one or two accidents a year in China as if the CCP were criminals deserving to be tried in a criminal court and then executed.

        I wrote a post about border shootings after I read a story in the Western media that criticized China over the possible but not verified shooting of a Tibetan nun fleeing China by crossing the border illegally. The person that witnessed the shooting was miles away on the Indian side of the border using a scope to watch. There were no photos—just the claims of someone that said he heard the shot and the person dressed in a Tibetan nuns outfit fell. Then clouds obscured his vision and he didn’t see what happened next as the Chinese border guards closed in on the refuges that were headed for the border. The media treated the event as if it were cold-blooded murder and used very negative language.

        Therefore, I researched border shootings looking for global facts and discovered that an average of 1,000 people are shot annually attempting to cross from Bangladesh into India illegally and I have never read or heard about that in the Western Media. In fact, I could not find a Western Media source that had done one piece on the topic and what I did discover was from Indian or Bangladeshi media sources published in English.

        Opinion makers that bill themselves as experts such as Troy Parfitt would probably say that all my research and the facts I find are not germane to any topic of China and has no credibility no matter where I found the facts even if it was from a source such as the World Bank.

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